Tobacco Documents Online

1086 552 Q- i0 A- 0- 15 2O 25 thirty-eight thousand, five hundred and forty-five dollars and sixty-two cents ($35,338,545.62), correct? Yes. And its -- that's relatively close to the number for the year nineteen eighty-seven (1987) as reflected in the Exhibit RJR-3 that you've previously filed? Yes. Correct. Now, when you turn the page in the document I'm showing you, you see sponsorships, an entire page is reflective of sponsorships for the years nineteen seventy-six (1976) through nineteen eighty-seven (1987), correct? Yes. And it goes so on and so forth. So for the year nineteen eighty-seven (1987), your company spent one million, three hundred and forty-five thousand dollars ($1,345,000) in sponsorships. We turn the page, we get to point of sale, it's one million, seven hundred and thirty-five thousand dollars ($1,735,000). Page for print advertising, page for signs of six million eight hundred and thirty-nine thousand dollars ($6,839,000). Production on media signs, two million and ninety-one thousand dollars ($2,091,000) and the last page is agency fees. Now, when you look at this document, Mr. Hoult, you see, for example, Export is always reflected AUDIOTRANSCRIPT, D~v~,~o~ de Pierre Viloire & Associgs Lt~e

1087 553 5 l0 15 2O 25 as a unique family. So, total spendings for nineteen eighty-seven (1987), I'm looking at the first (ist) page now, My Lord, nineteen million, seven hundred and seventy-three thousand, six hundred and nine dollars and thirty-one cents ($19,773,609.31). There is, of course, no way that one could, by looking at any of the pages in this document, determine what the breakdown is or was between the line extensions in the Export family? A- That's correct. Q- Right. I'd ask you, Mr. Hoult, to file -- we'll produce this document as AG-18 and ask you to obtain... THE COURT: This is Mr. Irving's copy. You'll file that. Me BAKER: We're going to file this document. THE COURT: We'll make a copy later on. Me BAKER: Can we hold it back and make a copy, and then we can file it. Would you undertake to provide for the Court the information that will allow us for the eleven (ii) year period, that is nineteen seventy-six (1976) through nineteen eighty-seven (1987), to get a breakdown of the expenses within the brand families and the areas of AUDIOTRANSCRIPT, Division de Pierre Vilalre & Associ¢s Ll~e

1088 554 5 i0 15 2O 25 Canada that you designated a few days ago, that is to say the five (5) areas, to the extent that it is possible. So, for example, I understand, Mr. Hoult, that when you're advertising in a national magazine, you can't distinguish between Ontario and Quebec, we understand that. But, for example, with billboards, you can distinguish with the point of sale costs from one province to another, to the extent that it is possible. That is the kind of information that we seek and, with the Court's permission, I now demand that that information be provided to us. Me IRVING: My Lord, it's all very well for my friend to demand, but surely that is exactly the kind of request that ought to have been made at the time of the discoveries; that's what discovery is for. The document which has just been handed in was a document which was prepared by the company at the request of Mr. Baker for the purposes of discovery. If the information now asked was considered essential, I don't know why it wasn't asked for then. Mr. Hoult's cross-examination is virtually finished. I have no idea how long it would take to obtain that kind of information and I have no idea if it is available and what kind of time and trouble would be required to put AUDIOTRANSCRIPT, Division de Pierre Vilalre ~ Associ~s Lt4e

1089 555 5 i0 15 20 25 it together. I have no objection, in principle, to any piece of information being given to my friend, I simply say that in the cross-examination of a witness, once the trial has begun and once the Plaintiff, wisely or unwisely, has decided as part of its case to put in general figures concerning advertising, this witness is not in a position to answer the questions my friend wants. Surely it's up to Mr. Baker as part of his own case then to obtain the information he wants. I haven't heard anything which shows why it's relevant and why, at this stage, after six (6) days of discovery and a great many undertakings fulfilled, filing' cabinets filled with documents filed, my friend asks where is stuff advertised and in what things. He has documents, in that huge mass, that show every newspaper and every magazine in Canada in which these ads are carried, and he has had them in his hands for months and months and months. He knows all this information. It is all in the documents. Now, I don't say that the breakdown between the brand family is, because I don't believe it is. But my friend wants to know where do you advertise, it's all there. I was just looking at one of the documents a moment ago, it goes right across the country, it shows AUDIOTRANSCRIPT, D~vi,~oo de Pierre Viloire & Associ~s Lt4e

1090 556 i0 15 2O 25 every newspaper, every magazine. We have provided so much information now that I'm most reluctant at the conclusion of a cross-examination to make undertakings which are properly discovery undertakings, and that said, let me just check, My Lord, and see what we might... My Lord, perhaps we can hold it and come back to it -- my understanding, and Mr. Thibaudeau is reminding me, Mr. Baker may recall too, I'm not sure, I think that Mr. Baker was told at the time of the discoveries that we were not able to get that kind of breakdown and what we were able to get is what is was given in the document now just filed. And if I could just take notice of the request and at the adjournment we will see what further material could be made available and if there is any, then -- and if it doesn't take weeks of effort, because I would object if the company was going to have to be put to, you know, to recreating a whole lot of records at great time and expense. But if it would be available, I have no objection to them getting it. But I think we're to have to take a few minutes to find out whether in fact there is any such information available. THE COURT: Anyways it's not available today for sure. AUDIOTRANSCRIPT, Division de Pierre

1091 557 i0 15 20 25 Me IRVING: No, it certainly isn't. And my recollection is that it's simply not available at all because we weren't able to find it. THE COURT: So you'll reserve your objection, if any? Me IRVING: Well, I'll reserve, may I just reserve my objection for the moment until I see what we can do and... Me BAKER: I understand my friend's reservation in respect of the objection, in respect of the request, My Lord. I merely would like to tell you that when he points to the filing cabinets and says it's all there, my observation is that the documents that my friends provided us with last Christmas, yes, there were a lot of them, and yes, they weighed a lot, and yes, they came in eight (8) very large boxes. I would defy my friend with a team of accountants and a team of lawyers to go through those boxes and those documents that they have provided us with -- and I'd give him six (6) months to do it in -- and I don't think he'd be able to give you the kind of information or give us the kind of information that he has just suggested that we should have available now from those documents. That is... AUDIOTRANSCRIPT, Division de Pierre Viloire & Associ4s [,4e

1092 558 10 15 2O 25 Me IRVING: I'm not saying that. THE COURT: I think what he's suggesting is that you should have asked that information before. Me BAKER: My Lord... THE COURT: But I do realize there are a number of documents... Me BAKER: Let us understand something, My Lord. There were objections put in the course of a hearing before you last fall by Mr. Potter of Imperial Tobacco. I made requests for certain kinds of financial data; that those requests were denied on the basis of relevance. I took that to be a cue that there were certain things that I could only ask for in the course of a trial after the relevance was set up. There was no point in asking questions and trying to get information in the course of discoveries and going to you and then going to the Court of Appeal. I was content to wait until the trial for certain kinds of information, taking my cue from Your Lordship's decision of last December, nineteen eighty-eight (1988). So I think it's improper and unfair for my friend AUDIOTRANSCRIPT, Divislon de Pierre Vilalre & Asso¢i~s Ltge

1093 559 i0 15 20 25 to say the time to get this stuff was at discovery. We've had a lot of informal telephone conversations in the course of the last six (6) or seven (7) or eight (8) or nine (9) months. I knew what they were prepared to make available and what they were not prepared to make available. Now he's opened up the door to the questions, because it is he who has filed the document, not I. I have no further questions for Mr. Hoult at this time, subject to the information being forthcoming. THE COURT: So, Mr. Irving, your objection is reserved. Me IRVING: Yes, for the moment, My Lord. I will re-examine Mr. Hoult and... But may I point out in response to Mr. Baker that, from our side, as far as RJR was concerned, we provided all the documents that Mr. Baker requested and that all the documents which are there are ones which he did, in fact, request. And I'm looking, just for example, I mean he has the nineteen eighty-seven (1987) Media Plan. THE COURT: But what's the point of arguing all this? Me IRVING: Well, it's just simply that this request is very AUDIOTRANSCRIPT, Division de Pierre Vilalre & Associ4s Lt~e

1094 560 5 i0 15 2O 25 untimely and unnecessary in my submission. Mr. Hoult... THE COURT: But I don't have an objection in front of me. You're reserving your objection. If you have something to say, you'll tell me as if and when you have something to say. RE-EXAMINATION BY Me COLIN IRVING on behalf of Petitioner RJR-Macdonald Inc. Q- Mr. Hoult, would you look at Exhibit AG-2, please. Could I have AG-2? THE COURT: What was it? Me IRVING: AG-2 -- it was the big cardboard. I think it's on the left of your... Me TREMBLAY: It's the canoeist. Me IRVING: Q- Now, Mr. Hoult, Mr. Baker asked you about one side of that document. And that is a point of sale advertisement, is it? A- Yes, it is. Q- And how would it be displayed? A- This particular display would either be hung from the ceiling or it would be free-standing or it would be held AUDIOTRANSCRIPT, Division de Pierre Vilolre & Associ~s Lt~e

1095 561 I0 15 20 25 in a frame in a retail store. Q- Would both sides always be visible? A- Yes, they would. Q- Yes. Now, would you look at the side that Mr. Baker didn't refer you to. Is that a brand family ad, Mr. Hoult? A- Yes, it is. Q- In the sense that it shows virtually the whole of the Export line? A- It does show the whole of the Export line. There are five (5) -- five (5) individual brands. Q- All right. So that anybody who saw one side would be in a position to see the other side as well, would they not? A- They would be in a position in terms of their normal shopping behaviour in a store, yes. Q- Thank you. Me BAKER: You mean if he walked around and looked at them? A- If he walked around the store. Me IRVING: Mr. Baker, I'm re-examining right at the moment. I think you can take it that one could only look at one side at a time. AUDIOTRANSCRIPT, olvisioo de Pierre Vilaire & Associ6s Lt4e